CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

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DL1ESK
Berichten: 7
Lid geworden op: 20 aug 2012, 11:11
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CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#1 Bericht door DL1ESK »

Hello to all Radio Amateurs,

I`d like to Inform you that DL1YBL made an Request on the IARU Conference in Sun City 2011, that all Repeaters must have an CTCSS Tone starting in the end of 2014.
Here the Request that DL1YBL made:

International Amateur Radio Union Region 1
2011 Regional Conference – Sun City, South Africa
12 to 19 August 2011
SC11_C5_39 C5 Use of CTCSS Sub Audio Tones for Analogue Repeater Control Page 1
Subject Use of CTCSS Sub Audio Tones for Analogue Repeater Control
Society DARC Country: Germany
Committee: C5 Paper number: SC11_C5_39
Author: Jochen Berns, DL1YBL
Introduction
CAVTAT 2008 conference agreed that new Digital Voice Repeaters can share the
repeater duplex frequencies with old analogue repeaters. A coordination process
and control by sub audio tones (CTCSS) could help to avoid interference between
users of analogue and digital repeaters on the same channel.
Background
In future more DV-repeaters and older FM repeaters will operate, even on the same
channel. Avoiding interferences when both types of repeaters are planned to operate
on a common channel, a “Coordination and Compatibility Verification Process” can
be done and may result in a change of the channel of one of the repeaters involved.
Unfortunately, in many areas there are not enough duplex frequencies available.
A serious problem will occur if one station is using high power and non-directional
antennas and is located between two FM repeaters (of nearly equal distance) on the
same channel. Such a distant station can even block out a portable or mobile station
quite near to a local repeater. A method to cope with this problem is to control both
FM repeaters by sub tones and force the individual station to reduce their power.
Such a technique would be also useful when the operation of DV and FM repeaters
are planned to operate on the same channel. A FM repeater will open the squelch
only when it receives a defined sub tone on the uplink frequency, an FM receiver
squelch will only be opened if the appropriate sub tone is set and received from the
repeater.
To facilitate knowing the right sub tone needed for reception on the user or repeater
side, three methods could be used at the FM repeater station:
1) The activated repeater permanently transmits the sub tone.
2) In addition to the call sign the letter indicating the sub tone is transmitted
during identification (e.g. DB0VR / B, if sub tone B is used according to Table FM
2.1)
3) In regular short intervals, the sub tone in use could be announced by voice.
Key Point and Proposal
Sub tone control of FM repeaters and receivers would reduce interference problems
SC11_C5_39 C5 Use of CTCSS Sub Audio Tones for Analogue Repeater Control Page 2
with DV repeaters on the same channel. The introduction of sub tone control is
appropriate for congested urban areas, a transition period could be defined; other
areas might follow later. With the sub tone control technique a multiple use of a
channel would be more frequently possible.
RECOMMENDATION
That after a transition period all FM repeaters in congested urban areas are
equipped and operated with sub tone control.


And he made the following Request too:

International Amateur Radio Union Region 1
2011 Regional Conference – Sun City, South Africa
12 to 19 August 2011
SC11_C5_36 C5 Additional 2 m Digital Voice Channels Page 1
Subject Additional 2 m Digital Voice Channels
Society DARC Country: Germany
Committee: C5 Paper number: SC11_C5_36
Author: Jochen Berns, DL1YBL
Introduction
In the VHF-manager Handbook_V5_42, Page 38 and 39, the repeater frequency
input range on the 2 m band is defined as 144,994 – 145,194 MHz and the output
range as 145,594 – 145,7935 MHz.
For Digital Voice communication (DV) it is proposed to define two new channels.
A new segment exclusively for DV-repeater could be: repeater input range 144,9815
– 144,994 MHz and the output range 145,5815 – 145,594 MHz, allowing two Digital
Voice channels with 6,25 KHz spacing.
Background
There is a lack of repeater frequencies for DV operation on the 2 m band. This lack
is an inherent amateur radio problem, because old analogue repeater technology is
still being used in a non-adequate manner. IARU Region 1 should support the new
technology by finding new duplex frequency pairs. The space communications
segment above the existing highest repeater output frequency is an essential limit;
therefore, alternative pairs of frequencies have to be identified below the existing
repeater range.
Key points and proposal
Digital voice communication technology is proposed to be allowed in the 2 m band
on new duplex repeater frequencies.
A new segment for DV-only-repeaters could be:
144,9815 – 144,994 MHz repeater Input
145,5815 – 145,594 MHz repeater output
Recommendation
That the 2 m band plan and the according footnotes are modified to comply with the
need for new digital voice duplex frequencies.


Remember that Frequencies are only for Digital !!!!!

The IARU Comitee Accepted this Requests and these rules will come, the 2 Frequencies on 2m are already in use in Erkelenz and Oelberg near Bonn (Owner of Repeater is DL1YBL)
We here in Germany don`t Accept the Rule of CTCSS for all Repeaters and we want to Stop that because it`s not necessary when the Coordination is ok.
On the Ham Radio 2012 he told that Analogue Repeaters are Stoneage and in time of Smartphones the Amateur Radio must go Digital too and in the Future will be Digital.
It`s not ok that one Person can make Rules for whole Europe and he don`t ask the majority ( thats the Analogue Repeater Operators ).
He just want to Replace the Analoque Repeaters with Digital ones, so that Icom can sell more Repeaters and Digital Units, that is what i think and other People too.
So we try to Stop that here in Germany and u should do that too.

In the Attachments are the Original Requests from Sun City and an Article from the Funktelegramm about DL1YBL and others.
When somebody can translate it in dutch that will be perfect. ( and sorry for my bad English )


best regards 73 DL1ESK
Bijlagen
Funktelegramm_201209_Seite8-9.pdf
Report from DK5YA about DL1YBL
(552.62 KiB) 309 keer gedownload
SC11_C5_39 DARC Use of CTCSS Sub Audio Tones for Analogue Repeater Control.pdf
Original Request from Sun City
(85.16 KiB) 355 keer gedownload
SC11_C5_36 DARC Additional 2 m Digital Voice Channels.pdf
Original Request from Sun City
(81.62 KiB) 365 keer gedownload

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pa3dsc
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#2 Bericht door pa3dsc »

"There is a lack of repeater frequencies for DV operation on the 2 m band. This lack
is an inherent amateur radio problem, because old analogue repeater technology is
still being used in a non-adequate manner. "

IS DAT WAAR???

"Analogue Repeaters are Stoneage and in time of Smartphones the Amateur Radio must go Digital too and in the Future will be Digital."
NOU EN?? Ik voel me helemaal Fred Flinstone bij de verbindingen in CW.

Als je dan in de toekomst denkt ga dan naar 23 cm en hoger met veel repeaters per vierkante 10km bv.

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PC1A
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Lid geworden op: 31 jan 2010, 15:30

Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#3 Bericht door PC1A »

Volgens mij kun je alleen via de DARC communiceren met de IARU en niet als individu,
althans hier kun je via de VERON, die namens de NL amateurs in de IARU zit zaken aandragen.

En als het niet door de VR komt dan komt het niet eens bij de IARU.

Case closed?
licenced since 1983

aka 9H3UJ en J45C

DL1ESK
Berichten: 7
Lid geworden op: 20 aug 2012, 11:11
Roepletters: DL1ESK

Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#4 Bericht door DL1ESK »

pa3dsc schreef:"There is a lack of repeater frequencies for DV operation on the 2 m band. This lack
is an inherent amateur radio problem, because old analogue repeater technology is
still being used in a non-adequate manner. "

IS DAT WAAR???

"Analogue Repeaters are Stoneage and in time of Smartphones the Amateur Radio must go Digital too and in the Future will be Digital."
NOU EN?? Ik voel me helemaal Fred Flinstone bij de verbindingen in CW.

Als je dan in de toekomst denkt ga dan naar 23 cm en hoger met veel repeaters per vierkante 10km bv.

That is his Declaration for the Request.
Here are the 2 Audio files from his monologue from the Ham Radio 2012 for these that Understand German.

https://rapidshare.com/files/1011030340 ... _1_cut.mp3
and
https://rapidshare.com/files/2089336924 ... _2_cut.mp3

DL1ESK
Berichten: 7
Lid geworden op: 20 aug 2012, 11:11
Roepletters: DL1ESK

Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#5 Bericht door DL1ESK »

PC1A schreef:Volgens mij kun je alleen via de DARC communiceren met de IARU en niet als individu,
althans hier kun je via de VERON, die namens de NL amateurs in de IARU zit zaken aandragen.

En als het niet door de VR komt dan komt het niet eens bij de IARU.

Case closed?
These 2 Requests are already Accepted by the IARU

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elsinga
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#6 Bericht door elsinga »

Wat zou er op tegen zijn om analoge FM relais binnen een afzienbare tijd verplicht een CTCSS toon (ingang en uitgang) te laten gebruiken? Ik zie er maar twee: kosten voor relais die nog geen CTCSS gebruiken en buitensluiten amateurs die een FM set hebben die geen CTCSS aankan. Ik kan alleen niet inschatten over hoeveel kosten en hoeveel amateurs we het dan hebben. Iemand een schatting of echte cijfers?

Voordeel is wel dat je geen onbedoeld openstaande relais meer hebt (laatst nog op IP2HVN een hele tijd "ruis" op de uitgang, waarschijnlijk veroorzaakt door een ingang die onder invloed van storing open was gaan staan).
www.PC5E.nl, Robert Elsinga, communicatie enthousiasteling, zendamateur (PC5E/WC5E/SP20EJ), scannerluisteraar, lokaal/regionaal/nationaal/internationaal scout, IT Security Expert
Icom IC7300, Icom IC-7000, X50N (14m asl), Diamond WD330S (sloper, 6-12m asl), Kenwood TH-F7E, 2x Anytone AT-D578UV (base, mobile), 3x Anytone AT-D878UV, MMVDM duplex hotspot, 20x Baofeng BF888S.
Op mijn site o.a. Examenuitwerking N/F, Scannerfrequenties NL e.o, Beginnen met DMR, DMR codeplug maken

pa5cal
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Berichten: 1999
Lid geworden op: 17 jan 2008, 22:22

Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#7 Bericht door pa5cal »

Ik heb een ts780 die geen ctcss heeft. OOIT was een printje voor maar dat bestaat al lang niet meer. Voor mijn thuis basis doeleinden is die set meer dan genoeg en ik zit er echt niet op te wachten om weer moeilijk te moeten gaan doen om dat om te gaan bouwen. Aan de andere kant is het "ge-eikel" tussen bijv. zoetermeer en nijmegen zwaar irritant en zou ctcss op ZOWEL de ingang als uitgang wenselijk zijn. Callgevers zonder ctcss dan is het lekker rustig :)

-P

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Aeolus
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#8 Bericht door Aeolus »

elsinga schreef:en buitensluiten amateurs die een FM set hebben die geen CTCSS aankan. Ik kan alleen niet inschatten over hoeveel kosten en hoeveel amateurs we het dan hebben. Iemand een schatting of echte cijfers?
Geen van beiden, maar wat ik wel weet is dat ongeveer tweederde van alle 2m repeaters in nederland ctcss gebruikt. Toegegeven, daar zitten enkele bij die het alleen op de uitgang hebben, en niet op de ingang, en die tref je daar niet mee. De luiheid overwint het momenteel even om dat uit te gaan zoeken hoe die verhoudingen zijn :) Feit blijft dat die amateurs dus diverse repeaters nu al niet kunnen werken. Ik ga er vanuit dat hen die graag over repeaters werkt er uiteindelijk wel voor zorgt dat de set uitgerust wordt met deze feature, of de set gewoon vervangt. Ik denk dat het belang van die enkeling die dan in de problemen zit niet echt opweegt tegen het belang van deze maatregel.

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Randy
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#9 Bericht door Randy »

In the new band plan for Region 1 there are already made changes in the 144 Mhz. part. Among others, one of them is related to repeater frequencies. Where they used to start at 144.600 Mhz, they now have 25 Kc more space so we could use these two new channels (or even 4 with 6,25Kc steps) for digital only. Problem solved... right?

http://iaru-r1.org/index.php?option=com ... Itemid=126

DL1ESK
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#10 Bericht door DL1ESK »

Randy schreef:In the new band plan for Region 1 there are already made changes in the 144 Mhz. part. Among others, one of them is related to repeater frequencies. Where they used to start at 144.600 Mhz, they now have 25 Kc more space so we could use these two new channels (or even 4 with 6,25Kc steps) for digital only. Problem solved... right?

http://iaru-r1.org/index.php?option=com ... Itemid=126

Hi Randy

The 2m Frequencies are only one of his Requests, the Problematic Request is that all Repeaters in Europe have to Use CTCSS after 2014 but it`s not necessary to do this and it has no Technical background.
Then u can forget Dxìng on VHF UHF unless u have a crystall ball.
And for the mobile users that travel around is a problem too if they want to talk over a repeater then u have to search for CTCSS tones while u drive.

PE5PVB
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#11 Bericht door PE5PVB »

Hi,

I don't see the problem. I can understand his problem. When you mix DV repeater frequencies with analogue repeater frequencies the analogue repeater will only produce noise when DV is in use. When using a tonecode, you can block this. For DX'ing it's also nice to have, now your local repeater will not open when you want to use the DX repeater.

Second, it's very important to make sure the repeater sends it's CTCSS frequency or code when it's transmitting it's beacon. Also there is a need to have a global CTCSS code for each region.

When you're using an old tranceiver without CTCSS it's very easy to build a generator. This can be done for a few euro's. You only need a microcontroller, opamp and filter. But I think most hams do already have a modern tranceiver in their car with CTCSS in it.

spirado
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Lid geworden op: 18 jul 2012, 18:31
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#12 Bericht door spirado »

And different repeaters in the same area can use the same frequency ? by selecting a different tone ? one's blind spot......

PE5PVB
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#13 Bericht door PE5PVB »

That is not what he asked. It's about a mix of digital and analogue. But I don't believe there are repeaters in the same region on the same frequency. BTW what about conversity?

DL1ESK
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#14 Bericht door DL1ESK »

PE5PVB schreef:Hi,

I don't see the problem. I can understand his problem. When you mix DV repeater frequencies with analogue repeater frequencies the analogue repeater will only produce noise when DV is in use. When using a tonecode, you can block this. For DX'ing it's also nice to have, now your local repeater will not open when you want to use the DX repeater.

Second, it's very important to make sure the repeater sends it's CTCSS frequency or code when it's transmitting it's beacon. Also there is a need to have a global CTCSS code for each region.

When you're using an old tranceiver without CTCSS it's very easy to build a generator. This can be done for a few euro's. You only need a microcontroller, opamp and filter. But I think most hams do already have a modern tranceiver in their car with CTCSS in it.
The Point is that we don`t need Sub Audio Tones when we do a good Coordination Job.
And we forget the costs for new Hardware that the Repeater Owners have to buy because not every Repeater Hardware can be equipped with CTCSS.
And u say for DXing a nice to have i see it different because when u have good VHF UHF Conditions then u wanna wait 10 Minutes on every Frequency for a Callsign Output that u can scan in these short time for the CTCSS tone?

spirado
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Re: CTCSS Tones obligation for all Repeaters

#15 Bericht door spirado »

QRM wise, it won't help either, an unmodulated signal, on the input freq. that's stronger, will make an disconnection of an existing conversation that uses CTCSS, only a mandatory installed BCLO will prevent this. Because it can be done.... it should be done ?
On the other hand, the 1750 tone is only used in Europe, and with CTCSS that would be an obsolete feature, if CTCSS also switches on the repeater ?
I guess i agree with the OP's last part of his original post, which comes down to: Just say NO !
to this "request" by one person, it brings up only more complications, and i doubt if it will help in busy crowded urban areas, it adds to the chaos ? to make it realy work you need more special features, not just BCLO, if this can be used with a repeater at all.

btw: the system discribed in the OP's article, isn't this the system used by the Blue Brick handhelds which once where in service at KLM airport ?

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